Session 2 With or Without God - by Gretta Vosper
why the way we live is more important than what we believe
Chapter 1 - It's time - The Freedom and Responsibility to Reconstruct Church
"Whether non-theistic religious gatherings can thrive and survive is anyone's guess. We are in the midst of a great experiement. I fervently believe that we need to see that experiment through to the end, giving our all to the creation of communities of "faith" that celebrate the communal nature of life and challenge us to engage in right relationship with self, others, and the planet." ... p356

Index Related Video Commentary Discussion References
Bonnae McTavish opened the meeting with a meditation on Hands. "I admire people's hands. I take note of them as they seem to tell a story about the person. I look at the hands of newborns and see the potential there. I look at the hands of old people and see the stories of their lives." MORE.
Related Videos
"Blessed art I, the Lord thy God, King of the Universe. Who loveth thee. Who desireth to make thee happy. Who apologizes for His misguided example, And the lamentable results of His interference. Who withdraweth His endorsement of murder, And seeketh thy forgiveness for His terrible mistake."
Vosper calls the new theology a mammoth in the room. A group called Woolly Mammoth has produced this 9min nano-opera "Credo" where God apologizes for inciting violence saying he was misunderstood. That murder is on our own heads now, not his. Excellent example of her metaphor.
A Tale of Three Churches & A New Age Mall in Toronto... 6:39. Dr Alan Roxbourgh of Allelon Canada tells this tale on location in Toronto. The people of here created a place of community called the "Carrot Common" and have made a place where concerns for health and community and ecology find expression. Roxbourgh observes this shows deep spiritual values. But the nearby Baptist, Anglican and United churches are oblivious.
Allelon is a leadership training base for the "Missional Church" a parallel to the "Emergent Church Movement" which is finding again the power of the Gospel of Jesus over the religiosity of traditional church. A video Allelon - Who We Are includes a spot from NT Wright.
Commentary -
I would like to use the following five themes for what I read Vosper to be saying in this chapter. My points are not exhaustive of all she says, but for me they help to summarize her message: Kairos, Radix, Integrity, Conspiracy, and Carpe Diem.

Kairos

"In moments of utter chaos, great things can happen." This is how Vosper begins chapter one. While "chaos" is a word I might use to underline the point she is trying to make, I prefer to use the work "kairos" which has a particular meaning in the early Christian church.

"Kairos" is a greek work to describe "time." But in the New Testament it is infused with a special meaning. Early Christians chose the word "kairos" to mean "the right time" or "the time God selected" to reveal Jesus to us.

Since then, some Christians have been inclined to use this word to denote a special time when history is a crossroads and the "reign of God" breaks through once more in human history.

Kairos - has been used to describe the decision of the early church to allow the apostle Paul to undertake his missionary journies among the Gentiles. It has been used to describe the Reformation of the sixteenth century or the expansion of "Christian Europe" to America.

Vosper says that we have come to a crucial time in Christian history when "basic change," not a "cosmetic remake," needs to occur.

Radix

This is a Latin word meaning "radical" or "root." It does not so much mean radical in terms of "political extreme" but radical as "basic." To be radical in this way means to get to the heart of an issue, to its root.

Vosper calls for a profound change in the church which she considers must be "radical." We need to view her call as a "profound" challenge, which may be extreme for many Christians, but which claims the honourable meaning - "basic" (or) "essential."

We need to understand that Vosper's call is directed to a rather exclusive audience. She addresses those who remain a part of the more liberal or progressive wing of Christianity which she believes is under particular stress in our time. Losing numbers. Closing facilities. Waning in societal influence.

She is not addressing people in the more conservative wings of the church. Neither is she addressing people outside the church.

Vosper's primary audience is people like us who are gathered to study her book in a "Canadian Mainline Protestant" church.

Her challenge to us has much precedent in the biblical and church traditions we honour. So in a real sense we should not be surprized.

Integrity

"Walk the talk" - is one way to define the word "integrity."

Many critics of the church in times past used to describe Christians as hypocrites. Christians would look so good "all clean and neet and in their seat" on a Sunday morning, but their lives through the rest of the week, it was claimed, were a blatant contradiction of the Sunday morning image.

I don't think Christians in Canada get much of that kind of criticism today. Many Canadians do not know - nor do they seem much to care - what Christians think or do. The world has, in many ways, passed us by.

So why does Vosper use or imply the word "integrity" in this chapter? I would suggest that she still lives with a memory of some of the criticism that used to be levelled at Christians. But more importantly, I think it is because observers of the first Christians lived "integrity." We are told, in the book of Acts, that people would watch the behaviour of early Christians and saw them as transparently and authentically loving. "See how they love one another" outsiders would say.

Vosper's argument is that radical Christians today need to determine what the basic HUMAN values really are. She lists some of them on page 32: hope, peace, joy, innocence, delight, forgiveness, caring, love, respect, wisdom, honour, creativity, tranquility, beauty, imagination, humour, awe, truth, purity,, justice, courage, fun, compassion, challenge, knowledge, daring, artistry, wonder, strength, and trustworthiness.

Vosper considers these terms "non-religious" - not the in-house language of Christians. She believes that Christians need to dispose of in-house language and behaviour. They need to live lives that authentically and transparently reflect basic human values that observers will recognize when they see it.

Conspiracy

If Christians were to live basic human values, many of which Jesus modelled, other Christians would probably be the first to become very upset. The irony, here is that - instead of celebrating such behaviour, certain Christian elites (persons of power and influence) would violently oppose them.

We know this happened to Jesus, and the Christians of the early church. It has continued to plaque persons seeking to live lives of Christian integrity all through history.

Vosper believes that the gravest threat to authentic Christianity today exists within - not beyond - the Christian church.

If we truly want to live basic human values with integrity, Christians should expect betrayal and persecution. They will have enemies, and many of those conspiring against them are close by, not far away.

Carpe Diem

This is another Latin word which I see as I summarize this chapter; even though Vosper does not use the term. It means "seize the day" and concludes her thoughts on a positive, hopeful note.

Vosper believes the risk of living a radical Christian life is very much worth it.

Now is the "kairos" - the time to "carpe diem!"
Summary of Discussion Notes
Questions for discussion:

1. How did you feel after reading this chapter?
2. Suggest places you a) agree b) disagree with the author.

Small Group Feedback

1. A strong sense that our ministers need support from those who have studied in groups like those gathered on Monday nights so that they will be free to speak their hearts and minds without fear of nasty and negative reaction in our community.
2. Vosper's book is a kind of "crie to coeur" (cry from the heart) from an intelligent and sensitive minister, teacher and writer.
3. Most the of ideas from this chapter have been discussed in previous series but they are well-stated here.
The evening closed with a reflection by Sharron Larson on the founding ideas behind the formation of United Church of Canada going back one hundred years (1908) in Saskatchewan."One hundred years ago, the first draft of the Basis of Union was completed " MORE.
References Related to Chapter One
Sep
5
p21. The Spong Study "A New Christianity for a New World" was studied here a few years ago. The research page has many links related to Vosper's issues. She is very much a disciple of Spong. Revisit or find out who is John Spong and his ideas by checking out these links.
Sep
7
p23. Honest to God - JAT Robinson. 1/2 the text is on-line with books.google.com. 1963. As the title declared this was the first cry to the public about the issues of the split between seminary and church and the failure to share the new understanding of bible and history. It is regarded as seminal by most progressive theologians today. John Spong (of the same Anglican tradition) picked up Robinson's cause. Spong introduces him in the essay John AT Robinson Remembered.
Canadian
Centre for
Progressive
Christianity
Sep
4
p32. "...at the CCPC, you'll connect with people who take progressive thinking seriously - seriously enough to challenge the church to a complete overhaul of the beliefs it has been carrying about for the last several hundred years. It's not that we're trying to do something new. It's that we're trying to catch up ..." Vosper is the founder.
Sep
5
p65. The tsunami of 2004 sound recording from the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory. Courtesy of MSNBC. Article. Not part of this discussion really, but Diego Garcia where the signals were picked up is a controversial strategic military base for the USA. LINK.
Sep
5
p78. The Institute for Studies of Religion at Baylor University. There are some 14 reports on line here not apparently including the referenced study. I've emailed Vosper on this.
CBC Ideas
Massey Lectures 2004.
Sep
6
p81. CBC Ideas - Massey Lectures 2004. "In A Short History of Progress Ronald Wright argues that our modern predicament is as old as civilization, a 10,000-year experiment we have participated in but seldom controlled." Listen to the lecture in CBC archives.
PBS
Speaking of Faith
Podcast
- Bonhoeffer
Sep
14
Ethics and the Will of God - The Legacy of Deitrich Bonhoeffer. Archive material and 1 hr audio program with Krista Tippett of PBS Series "Speaking of Faith". Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran Theologian who confronted the Nazis and died for it. He coined the phrase "religionless christianity" partly as a way to understand when religion goes astray, but spiritual ethic rings clearly. This program honours him and introduces him afresh.
Sep
14
p40,ff. Vosper mentions a number of the theologians that have brought us the new understandings. The copyright on their books is rather tight. The internet flourishes with commentary on themes they started, but direct excerpts are amazon or libraries. The best jumping off place would be wikipedia which itself abounds in new links.
Sep
14
P43. Sea of Faith in Australia is a network of Australians who are seeking a radical reappraisal of past religious traditions in order to meet today’s spiritual challenges. Here, a review of Jack Good's. The Dishonest Church. They review a hundred of the sort of books that Vosper is referring to as progressive scholarship.
Clicking the icon left will activate the e-mail on your machine and direct your comments to us. Comments are welcome and will be posted with usual editorial courtesies. St. David's United Church.Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Jan 2008