Session 10 How Jesus Became Christian - by Barrie Wilson
Marcus Borg - Teleconference
"What Christianity achieved in the post-Constantine fourth-century era represented the marketing victory of all times. It is especially ironic that a movement that started off as a radical challenge to the Pax Romana succeeded in becoming the official religion of the Roman Empire. ... But the victory came at a tremendous price. Simply put, the teachings of Jesus himself were smothered by the religion of Paul." ... p255

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Index                                    CONVERSATION WITH MARCUS BORG MARCH 23, 2009

Q: How successful was your trip?
A: … four locations: Kentucky, S. Carolina, Nebraska,… standing room only… spoke to 2000 people from Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist. (Marcus wears red socks to presentations)

Q: ….Paul, especially. With so many books on Paul, why this one?
A: John and Marcus share a vocational passion for writing for people in the church, trying to write for congregational setting while others may be writing for academic audiences where Paul is trashed or at least considered to be eccentric.
The first Paul, seven genuine letters, were as radical as Jesus' teaching but in a different circumstance: rural vs. urban, local vs outside. M. goal is to reclaim Paul for the church. Their book is "short but good".

Q: This book came out at the end of our book study and will be sold here. Through our winter study of B. Wilson's book we were confronted with comments against Paul. Wilson was an Anglican who became a Jew because of developing ideas about Paul. Paul adapted Jesus' message for Gentiles but Wilson saw Paul as perverting Jesus message.
A: Two things: a. acknowledges the mixed reputation of Paul… Appealing or
Ap 'paul 'ling? All Christians revere Jesus but have issues with Paul. Marcus distinguishes the Pauline letters as the first seven recognized as the disputed, conservative Paul and the second Paul the Paul of 1,2 Timothy, Titus who was the reactionary Paul.
b. it is really helpful for Christians to ask themselves, "If you had to state the heart of the Christian message, what is it?" Growing up, age 12, Marcus would have said, "Gospel is, Jesus died for our sins so we can be forgiven and go to heaven." If you see Paul in this framework, then Paul becomes unattractive - through that filter. Substitutionary atonement, etc. are profound misunderstanding about Paul.

Q: So, Marcus, did Paul distort the message of Jesus?" From Jesus to about Jesus.
A: No, Jesus message was all pre-Easter. He was not the subject of his own message, rather about God, the Kingdom of God. Paul was post-Easter, 20 years after Jesus death. Paul's message was about Jesus - a perspective that all the followers of Jesus believed at that time. Paul provides short phrases of his message. Christ crucified (not Jesus died for our sins). In Paul's world, the cross was a Roman cross. Paul's message was anti-Roman. "Jesus is Lord"-- Lord is one of the titles of the Roman Emperor. Jesus is lord - not the other dominant figures of the time who were referred to as Lord.
In Christ - over 100 times used in the seven letters. For Paul, a phrase for an egalitarian community, much different than the existing culture.
"Justification by Grace"-had a political element. Paul was not the spoiler of Christianity.

Q: Wilson wrote of a Torah free Christ-centered religion - not as Jesus lived and believed. How would Jesus evaluate Paul?
A: Torah free is not what Paul did. He did eliminate the need for circumcision or kosher food laws to gentile followers when sharing the common meal of the first century. He asked, "Do Christian Jews need to set aside Kosher beliefs to share a meal?" Paul could have gone either way and he came against Kosher food and circumcision. Paul was addressing those outside Judaism. …thinks of the Gentiles as those already attracted to Jewish ideas/beliefs - didn't convert them because of circumcision laws which would have left them outside. "Gentile God-fearers already knew much of this - Paul said people could become followers of Jesus without needing circumcision.

Q: Wilson suggests that history of ACTS with the blessing of Jerusalem church, in abandoning circumcision and purity rules is convenient legend. Comment.
A: Acts is not straight forward, historical writing. Paul was executed in the 60s and Act was written in the 90s. Acts as it presents Paul, sometimes is consistent but sometimes is silent on issues. So we go with the first seven letters. Early Christian movement had a fundamental underlying structure. Paul refers in Acts to being an apostle. Acts 15 is not a transcript but consistent with Paul's mission to the Gentiles. It is inconsistent in that Paul likely didn't go to synagogues but conversed with God-fearers. More a conversationalist than a preacher.

Q: If we wish to be truer to Christianity, must we convert to Judaism?
A: Intentional observant Jew is closer to Jesus' teaching than many teaching. Forgiveness of sin, all about heaven is closer to the spirit of Jesus and Paul. The primary difference is that Christianity makes God of Israel available to everybody without becoming Jewish (universality). Judaism is authentic, particularity (??) Both connect with no need to become Jewish to be a child of Abraham, Jesus, Paul.

Q: Maybe we should become Paulites?
A: Only if one believed there to be a huge different. Paul, teacher of Jesus, pointed to Jesus. He himself was a Christian.

Q: 150 years after Paul, Gnosticism seems to be a paradigm for new Christianity. Favourable to lost forms of Christianity. Gnosticism, divine spirit, resides in everyone but requires study. Three stages including mysticism. What is your take on Gnosticism? Even after the 1945 discovery of the library…?
A: Level one-if Gnosticism and mysticism are the same then Jesus and Paul were both Gnostics and Mystics. Level two: first century Gnosticism was exceptionally dualistic: creation and human creation (view as evil) Creative world of nature as evil work of God. The Goal: escape the creative world and the evils therein. Creative world is good says John 3:16. World is loved by God. …. Doesn't like the apolitical world of Gnosticism. Jesus was passionate about the kingdom of earth. Robert Frost wrote: I had a lover's quarrel with the world." (like God's devotion to the world.) Few Christian Gnostics did not treat women better but Gnostics held women as nature, men as mind.

Q: Referring to being Jewish with conviction, the universality of Christianity compared to Judaism (local). Jesus of history stayed with the Jewish faith. Do you think Jesus teachings would have survived without Paul?
A: Jesus grew up in a Jewish homeland where he was confined to the Judaistic culture but tried to reform Judaism. Maybe it should not have been extended to Jesus' mission. Jesus included in his mission all peoples, including those beyond the boundaries of convention. Jesus openly ate with those outside - an affirmation of God's love going beyond.

Q: Would Jesus' teaching be remembered without Paul?
A: estimates of population were around 60 million with Jewish people numbering 6-10 million or about 10 to 15 % of Roman empire. If no Paul, would enough of those Jews create a Jesus form of Judaism. By the end of the first century, there was but a handful of Christians. Who would have believed that?

Q: Would the Jesus movement have become the Christianity of the day?
A: Some studies of Jewish and Christian peoples before 250, most Christians were still within a Jewish background. Jesus would have been remembered in a Jewish community as well.

Q: … intrigued by your connection between Christianity and Judaism and its core understandings. Sees an interfaith dimension and interchristian dimension…. Any more books?
A: Gospel on Mark is finished and a novel for early winter next year. "Redeeming Christian Language, the things we say in Church" - Redemption, salvation, confession of sins, common meanings narrower and even misunderstandings.

Q: Hope for what we discuss here to be preached?
A: Hunger for speakers is far more than doable. Come with approval of clergy - a movement on the ground. Conservative/fundamentalism is the majority but for mainline churches, I am encouraged by what I see.

Q: Tell me, did you get a standing ovation?
A: I like standing ovations.
Notes by Brenda Wallace
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