Session 0
01
With or Without God - by Gretta Vosper
why the way we live is more important than what we believe
"Whether non-theistic religious gatherings can thrive and survive is anyone's guess. We are in the midst of a great experiement. I fervently believe that we need to see that experiment through to the end, giving our all to the creation of communities of "faith" that celebrate the communal nature of life and challenge us to engage in right relationship with self, others, and the planet." ... p356

Index Lecture Notes Q & A References
Notes of Lecture delivered at Hillhurst United Church, Calgary - Spring 2008
Gretta Vosper, Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity
notetaker - jmctavish
The Canadian Centre for Progressive Christianity is an organization (with website) that has for a few years now been a place for progressive christians to gather and share across lines of denomination and philosophy.

When Bill Phipps was moderator of the United Church he talked of a "spiritual sprawl" and the need to be irritated to change, to be a people who care, to acknowledge the changing meanings in religion. She much appreciated Bill for his footsteps of truth and integrity.

Along her own journey of truth she has found comfort in a saying of Cicero “Seek the truth; come whence it may; cost what it will.” Truth is noting what works for us through history. Such a tradition keeps one safe. New discovery moderates these truths that worked to keep one safe. Codes of Truth were put in the centre of community. They centred on the name "God". Safety was in keeping God happy. Science brought such changes. Some old ideas don't work now. We have found truth in places other than church. Her book "With or Without God" is about this "cost what may".

In 2005, while at summer school, the notion of "spirituality and the brain" caught her attention. What if God becomes understood as a brain process? This upset the conference, but she pursued the idea.

The Bible is now understood as a human construct. Catholics are amongst the most exploratory. Protestants are seriously revising tradition. We must own the consequence of the Bible not being the "Word of God". We've not been doing that in the churches. We've been hiding. We've lost our integrity. The fundamentalists are thriving because they are "drenched in integrity".

When we realize this about the Bible, what happens? We move to rephrasing - new meanings new words. We move to action and justice. Or we make God into beauty and sterilize the meaning - often subscribing to a "person" God. A creator who favours us over others.

This is a high cost.

Same also for the language and iconography of Jesus. We lose the stories. She called then out to the audience, "What goes into your God description? What not?" People called out words of compassion, celebration and community.

We need in community to strive for these things and when we fail, that encourages and supports us.
Questions & Answers
Q. If the Bible is human, where does authority issue? What about evil?
A. Good questions. Lots of faith communities are divisive. But if so being religious they should be called to account. Anything we do will never be enough. The challenge is constant. Good and evil are in constant contest. But if the liberal community fails, then where is the voice of balance? If the church should fail, OK, but the values are what is important. Let's not carve up the Bible into good bits and bad bits without being aware of what we are doing.

Q. Yesterday a lady attended a funeral. What's after?
A. Well, who knows? But whatever picture you can manage, live up to it. If one dies to heaven, then live well. I one dies without heaven, then also live well. But we shouldn't kill each other on that issue.

Q. The Judeo-Christian tradition is ours. John Spong wants to remain on a Christian path. There seems much confusion about jettisoning the god-jesus language. Seems we are simply joining the humanist camp. Why the Christian path?
A. Is there such a gap? What is the cost we pay? People are nurtured in quite various ways. The church is a repository of spiritual tools. A church is also a means of community influence.

Q. Don Cupid used a metaphor "Sea of Faith". There seems power in such language.
A. Sure. Am trying to be loyal to tradition.

Q. Why on earth do you think giving up the old notions of God to be a "cost" rather than a "price" to pay for something of higher value?
A. Perhaps for this cost we find the pearl of great value.

Q. Where do values come from?
A. Can't say. This is a perrenial question. But values build community. They ward off evil. Giving up a Theistic God means prayer becomes not interventinist, but supportive of community. Don't give up Jesus, but come to the stories of Jesus with a more to learn attitude, to discover new values.

Q. Does this not reduce matters to mere humanism?
A. Well let's see where it takes us. there are things in common to be found in various communities including the humanists. The transcendent does not dissappear when the word God loses value.

Q. The United Church of Canada Creeds and Ordination traditions don't seem to allow for her to be a UCC minister!
A. She answers that this is not a matter of UCC General Council, but each church and presbytery as they surveil and vote. In her own case she has been careful to stay accountable to her church and presbytery. And is glad of their continued support. If we can create and re-create such a Christian community, we do a good thing. Whether Jesus was real, the stories are. They are nothing if not the teaching of these ideals and injunctions on how to live. We need to cast aside "belief" and begin to act our faith. For many people, this process is a collapse of everything in the faith area. Her husband was such a person. As a songwriter, he became unable to write church songs. It took 25 years for him to replace the praise of a supernatural God to be able to write the "The Light of Love".

WRAPUP

It is our responsibility to search out new truth and live by them. If you must tell me your opinions, the tell me also what you believe in. We need to move past our doubts to all that's worthwhile. We believe what we must. The Bible does contain much experience of the divine. Jesus tried as we do, to understand life. Theology should be reassessed for the value and not the forced old ideas. New understandings are also tentative. Important to struggle to se values. The world of the spirit is mystery. Justice and Compassion are consequences of love. She read hers and Scott Kearns hymn. "The Light of Love", with its modern expression of the oldest truth. ... in the light of love our purpose shines ... it is our calling ... nothing can take the place of love ... nothing ... " All must be challenged and reviewed and changed.
Clicking the icon left will activate the e-mail on your machine and direct your comments to us. Comments are welcome and will be posted with usual editorial courtesies. St. David's United Church.Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Jan 2008