The Meaning of Jesus
A Study in Holy Manners
A Cyberspace Discussion
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The Meaning of Jesus
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A Cyberspace Discussion |
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| A6 | Midrash . Check in on the Part 2 References for some interesting references and definitions of Midrash. |
| Jock A5 |
But the story of the other Messiah's DID
survive. We know quite a bit about them,
but they aren't turned into God by history. I like a notion of Phillip Yancey. The human religious ideal has always been one of naming and excluding the unclean - be clean by avoiding the unclean. That leaves many folks outcasts and Jesus went to them. The common religious wisdom says you will be made unclean by touching the unclean. Jesus touched but was not made unclean. In doing what he did, we clean up the unclean and heal the hurt. etc. THAT's the difference between Jesus and all the others I think. That's why his story survived. That's power that resurrects. It's a shame we don't do so well doing what he did. But over and over through the ages we do discover it again. |
| Wayne A5 |
On the question of why did the Jesus story survive while others did not I could offer the view that it was a combination of historical factors and the will of God. |
| Jock Q1-3 P2 |
I pretty much agree there. But I notice the
2 visions theme strongly on this issue.
Because
so much of Christian religion is "resonant"
as Borg puts it, there are two levels
of
our understanding weaving in an out
here.
I love the pre-and-post-Easter bit
because
it so clarifying of these themes. While
we
strive to understand Jesus the man
we are
still considering Jesus the Saviour.
When
later we strive to understand Jesus
the Saviour
I expect we will still be considering
Jesus
the Man. That's why I am appreciating
the
modern spin that Wright is putting
on the
take-it-straight tradition. There's a gospel song "When He was on the cross, I was on His mind." I don't think that's an historical truth, but it does seem to be a faith truth for many many Christians. |
| Wayne A1-3 P2 |
So, Jock, what does it matter if Jesus was
'self aware' or not? It matters because we believe Jesus was both God and human. Borg makes a most important point when he distinguishes between the pre-and-post-Easter Jesus. Pre-Easter is the Jesus of History. Post-Easter is the Christ of Faith. If we put the emphasis on the latter, we take all the guesswork out of it. Jesus was 'self-aware' from the beginning. If we put the emphasis on the former, we chose to live in the ambiguity that he did not know. He was human, and if so, had illusions of grandure rather than self-awareness. I tend to support Borg here because I don't believe Jesus' humanity allowed him to *know*. The early church endowed him with that title and read the Old Testament in such a way as to predict and confirm his messiahship. That was the *agenda* of those who put together the Gospels. |
| Borg A1-3 P2 |
Borg (p.55) Whether or not Jesus thought
he was the messiah (his messianic 'self
awareness')
he *is* the messiah. That is, his messianic
status and the truth of the exalted
metaphors
do not depend upon whether Jesus thought
of himself in those terms. Whether
any of
them go back to Jesus or not, they
are the
community's testimony to what Jesus
had become
in their life together. Borg (p. 55) Wright and I share an important agreement: Jesus is the Christian messiah. We disagree about a particular historical judgement, namely whether we can be reasonably confident that a messianic self-understanding was part of Jesus own self-awareness. |
| Wright A1-3 P2 |
Wright (p. 50) I find..the Jesus I have been
describing: Jesus as a first century
prophet
announcing and inaugurating the kingdom
of
God, summoning others to join him,
warning
of the consequences if they did not,
doing
all this in symbolic actions, and indicating
in symbolic actions, and in cryptic
and coded
sayings, that he believed he was Isaiah's
messiah, the one through whom the true
God
would accomplish his decisive purpose.
Wright (p. 55) Jesus thought he was the messiah, and he was right. Based on what the New Testament itself says, this has been the common Christian position throughout the ages. A considerable body of scholarship also argues for this view. |
| Q7-P2 | What decided what made up the New Testament?. Why are some different? |
| Q6-P2 | What is Midrash and what is the application of it? |
| Q5-P2 | Why did Jesus' story survive, while others did not? |
| Q4-P2 | What is the meaning of the Kingdom of God? |
| Q3-P2 | When Jesus 'quotes' Isaiah (and others) did he understand himself to be as Isaiah wrote? |
| Q2-P2 | What was the 'agenda' of those who established the Gospel canon? |
| Q1-P2 | Did Jesus consider himself a/the Messiah? |
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St. David's United Church.Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
The United Church of Canada
October 16, 2000